The guy <electronically> signed a contract. What's so hard to understand? It's a pretty simple deal - it makes it very clear you can't post this code for the world to see or share it with others - not even screen shots.

This is not like the "Think Secret" case, where that guy has NO agreement with Apple. These ADC guys DID. If they couldn't hold up their end of the bargain, they shouldn't have entered into the agreement.

Agree
Responsibility and Accountability..... where has it gone??????????

Apple has the right to protect their intellectual property, and with OSX being so central to their future, they should be agressively going after these people.

Apple does have a right to protect their intellectual property. But by turning their massive legal guns on some little Canadian student, they make themselves look like an ogre. Sorry, but its true.

Apple should quietly drop the matter after awhile, for PR reasons if nothing else.

...are out with their pitchforks. These are dumba$$ kids. Cut them a break. It's not like they're doing something mean. They were swapping some beta software, that ALREADY WAS widely pilfered and passed around because the WWDC beta was ripped and sent across other p2p networks instantly after WWDC. Apple made their point spanking these kids in public. They and many others following this will likely not make that mistake again. They got the press. Now if they're smart they'll drop this and come out the good guy. It's pretty bad when your former founder makes you look like total tools and bullies (which of course, sadly, mostly describes apple management these days).

That little Canadian student broke a contractual agreement. If Apple stands back and lets people violate the terms of their memebership to the ADC, then there's no reason to follow the terms of their membership. It's not very important how this makes Apple look, because it's a hundred times more damaging for them to let this slide.

The guy is in the wrong. That's not the issue here. What's at stake here is: how hard will you kick small fish.
Not hard at all? Not good, a lesson needs to be learned.
Hard, but fair. OK, That's where we're now, says Steve II, so stop kicking.
So hard the little guy won't ever get up? Now, that's plain stupid, and if I'm allowed to be contradictory, verging on the criminal.
Why criminal? Because we're talking about a BIG company mashing a student to pulp over a BETA version of its OS, an early beta at that. Now, Apple is within its rights to take this to - or imo over - the limit, but it doesn't HAVE to. That's the point being made by Steve II and imo a very good point indeed. The little guy's punished already, so like a good Roman emperor, point that thumb down and show some mercy, now that costs are still somewhat within the reach of a student. (If you see an error in that sentence, reread your history .
Cheers

...who has built and sold devices to break into phone systems. No surprise that he's more than sympathetic to those NDA breakers.

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Guest wrote:
...who has built and sold devices to break into phone systems. No surprise that he's more than sympathetic to those NDA breakers.

He made it for himself to prank the pope. It took Steve Jobs to come up with the bright idea of *SELLING* the boxes door to door on campus thereby breaking the federal wiretap laws.

The biggest criminals tend to float to the top, much like pond scum.

The guy signed a contract. I'm sympathetic to Apple wanting to exert control over its betas. But they should be reasonable; the punishment should fit the crime. Kick him out of the developers' group, ask for $1000 restitution (Woz's contribution) and admission of guilt, and let him rejoin in 2 years. Then Apple should match the donation and give it to some tsunami fund.

The issue is not whether the student has been punished enough (which I sincerely doubt), the issue is whether Apple should allow this case to simply slide by, yeilding to PR pressure.

This person made an agreement, a legally binding contract, which he then broke. There's no question that Apple has the legal right to bring the issue to court. Apple also has the moral right to go after this kid. By ignoring or downplaying what this guy did Apple sets a presidence by which others can do the same thing.

Also, letting this guy off the hook unfair to all of the others who have signed the same agreement and continue to abide by it. Would you feel equally forgiving if everyone who signed started posting what they know on the Web?

It is one thing to feel bad for the guy; it's got to be tough to be on the receiving end of Apple's legal beagles, but the fact is that he is responsible for his actions. He needs to fact up to those responsibilities, and we need to let him.

I also feel that we should not blame Apple for doing what it believes is right. Yes, there are other thing worse than what this kid has done, but that's not what Apple is dealing with, and I would think that Apple would address other issues just as vigoruosly.

Vern Seward

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Guest wrote:
...are out with their pitchforks. These are dumba$$ kids.

Med students generally are NOT dumba$$ kids....and this guy knew beforehand what he was doing was wrong. He DID sign the contract, didn't he?

"""I've not uploaded or torrented or shared in anyway, previous releases of Tiger," he wrote. But later, Mr. Sambhara commented, "did I do exactly what Apple is accusing me of doing? I did share the file. So in that regard yes""

What he's saying is that he only did it with that one build... as a frequenter of sites, I can tell you there were many different builds of 10.4 on the net before that. He's just saying he did it, but he hadn't done it before that.

Anyone can understand Woz's position since these users are his kind of people, the little-guy computer apple fans. I'm sure he hates to see a kid's zeal for looking at the neatest stuff cause such legal woes. It could have just as easily been myself who got caught by this not too long ago when I first discovered Bittorrent and MTKA. Was I the hub of a massive pirating ring? Not in my mind, but this is the danger of P2P file swapping. It seems so innocent. "I'll never get caught - they don't care about lil' ol' me - I'm just a student who isn't really a part of this industry."

Still, I can't help but feel that Apple's position as a computer manufacturer is at stake when it comes to the secrecy of their beta products. OS X is a key part to the future success of their platform, and they can't stand by idle while primitive versions of it fly around all over the internet.

Is Apple being too harsh? Maybe.
Where these kids unaware of the consequences? Most likely.
Does Apple need to prove they are a business that fights security leaks? You bet.
Should these students suffer for this the rest of their lives? No way.

But you can see how see how this isn't an easy situation for either side to resolve. Woz is echoing what I'm sure most of us really do feel for these three, but it isn't like Apple can just say "Shame on you!" and walk away. I'm sure you've noticed the stock price over the last year. Most of the people buying that stock could possibly think twice about it if they knew that the company they were buying into didn't do much about the illegal distribution of code - especially when they know this company once let the GUI slip away from them due to a contractual oversight with Microsoft

(good god - now I sound like a real yuppiescum - "We have a duty to our stockholders!" - business sucks)

...do you think they can get the death penalty?

Just askin'. Nothin' like a nice execution to scare away pirates.

(But seriously - Woz is nuts. They have to show they're serious here.)

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Brutno wrote:

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Guest wrote:
...are out with their pitchforks. These are dumba$$ kids.

Med students generally are NOT dumba$$ kids....and this guy knew beforehand what he was doing was wrong. He DID sign the contract, didn't he?

Signed "digitally" to join the ADC, but did not read all the rules apparently.

Do you read the complete verbage of each software license before you install?

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VSeward wrote:
The issue is not whether the student has been punished enough (which I sincerely doubt), the issue is whether Apple should allow this case to simply slide by, yeilding to PR pressure.

This person made an agreement, a legally binding contract, which he then broke. There's no question that Apple has the legal right to bring the issue to court. Apple also has the moral right to go after this kid. By ignoring or downplaying what this guy did Apple sets a presidence by which others can do the same thing.

Also, letting this guy off the hook unfair to all of the others who have signed the same agreement and continue to abide by it. Would you feel equally forgiving if everyone who signed started posting what they know on the Web?

It is one thing to feel bad for the guy; it's got to be tough to be on the receiving end of Apple's legal beagles, but the fact is that he is responsible for his actions. He needs to fact up to those responsibilities, and we need to let him.

I also feel that we should not blame Apple for doing what it believes is right. Yes, there are other thing worse than what this kid has done, but that's not what Apple is dealing with, and I would think that Apple would address other issues just as vigoruosly.

Vern Seward

I feel compelled to say you are totally retarded on this issue. I'm hoping your kids are shown more mercy if they ever, god forbid, mess up on something as innane as this.

Click-wrap licenses have dubious moral weight. They are 8 billion pages long and incomprehensible to most lawyers, forget normal people, and further forget students. Don't give me this existentialist bs that you're always responsible. If a boeing 747 crashes into you out of the blue, you're not partly at fault because you chose to go out that day and walk the streets. Lets be honest, this kid did the same thing tons of other kids (and adults, and I dare bet that you Vern and others that visit this site have done), and steve jobs has done. Share some software. Dumb. sure. But the law is WAY out of wack on the punishment that results when david gets plowed by goliath. The only difference is that you guys are such apple lackys that you'll find any justification at all to make it ok for apple to do any damn thing. and spare me your justifications, they sound hollow after your party line comments above.

The reality was that not only was this crap software available for $500 to any dullard that wanted it, but it was ALREADY widely pilfered on p2p networks. This is the same asinine logic that puts Martha Stewart behind bars for $5 worth of insider trading when many Enron boys boosted billions and get off without a slap on the wrist. SOmetimes the laws are just out of wack and that is exactly what is going on here. This punishment does not fit the crime, and anyone that is stretching sharing some software to losing a career in medicine by a young person--anyone stretching an argument justifying such an outcome is a freak'n apple apologist loon, a retarded existentialist, or some other combination of crazy.

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Brutno wrote:

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Guest wrote:
...are out with their pitchforks. These are dumba$$ kids.

Med students generally are NOT dumba$$ kids....and this guy knew beforehand what he was doing was wrong. He DID sign the contract, didn't he?

Med students are ARCHITYPE dumba$$s. They think they're brighter than they are because they manage to memorize organic chem. They think they are god like. They are YOUNG. Anyone that young is likely a dumba$$. If you are not, you are the exception. Go to a med school and see all the stupid games they play with the cadavers and then talk to me about how they are incapable of acting stupidly.

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Guest wrote:
(good god - now I sound like a real yuppiescum - "We have a duty to our stockholders!" - business sucks)

Right, because every apple supporter will make almost any justification for apple instead of hold them to the fire when they are being hypocrites to everything they supposedly stand for.

Here's an easy outcome. Apple offers a settlement for say $3000. Settlements are COMMON in litigations, and this woudl serve as a warning, especially if it follows it with a terse PR that subsequent infractions will not get off so easy.

No, I don't read every license completely. But I *did* read this, along with the NDA, before I joined ADC. It took 10 minutes, and was pretty darn clear.

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Guest wrote:


I feel compelled to say you are totally retarded on this issue. I'm hoping your kids are shown more mercy if they ever, god forbid, mess up on something as innane as this.

Click-wrap licenses have dubious moral weight. They are 8 billion pages long and incomprehensible to most lawyers, forget normal people, and further forget students. Don't give me this existentialist bs that you're always responsible. If a boeing 747 crashes into you out of the blue, you're not partly at fault because you chose to go out that day and walk the streets. Lets be honest, this kid did the same thing tons of other kids (and adults, and I dare bet that you Vern and others that visit this site have done), and steve jobs has done. Share some software. Dumb. sure. But the law is WAY out of wack on the punishment that results when david gets plowed by goliath. The only difference is that you guys are such apple lackys that you'll find any justification at all to make it ok for apple to do any damn thing. and spare me your justifications, they sound hollow after your party line comments above.

The reality was that not only was this crap software available for $500 to any dullard that wanted it, but it was ALREADY widely pilfered on p2p networks. This is the same asinine logic that puts Martha Stewart behind bars for $5 worth of insider trading when many Enron boys boosted billions and get off without a slap on the wrist. SOmetimes the laws are just out of wack and that is exactly what is going on here. This punishment does not fit the crime, and anyone that is stretching sharing some software to losing a career in medicine by a young person--anyone stretching an argument justifying such an outcome is a freak'n apple apologist loon, a retarded existentialist, or some other combination of crazy.

Oh, please. You don't have to read any fine print to know not to provide a tracker for copyrighted OS. Especially a pre-release. These are college kids, not 4-year olds. This whole "I didn't know it was illegal" thing is pure BS.

I think Apple needs to scare the hell out of them, knock them upside the head a little bit with a financial settlement ($5K? $10K) and have them sign a deal not to divulge details of the settlement. Done and over with.

But don't make excuses for them...

"Right, because every apple supporter will make almost any justification for apple instead of hold them to the fire when they are being hypocrites to everything they supposedly stand for. "

A very good point. I agree that many Apple fanatics will bend their rational minds to where the sun don't shine when it comes to a genuine mistake and bad decision on Apple's part. The fanboy mentality is that, "If Apple isn't always right and justified in any decision it makes, my life is a lie!"

However, brand loyalty is something that Apple depends on, and in my case, they've earned it. I want to keep using Apple products, and I don't want to see them making the same poor business decisions that they clearly made in the past. Microsoft is headed for some darker days due to their inability to truely convince the world that their OS isn't riddled with security problems. Apple could run into trouble if they are seen as not reacting with gusto to a tangental problem (leaked betas).

If this wasn't Apple, but say ... Adobe or (heaven forbid) Microsoft going after users who leaked betas to the world before release, I would have the same sort of feeling towards the poor saps that got hammered. "It sucks that they're doing this, but ya can't say you didn't know what you were doing was wrong." The fact that you got this software under a NDA that required you to register with the company as a developer just makes it that much tougher for me to sympathize.

Maybe a certain amount of this IS fanboy style defense of Apple, but I actually think it says a great deal more about the loyalty of Apple's customer base who doesn't want to see the company they trust so much get left behind because of the ever growing P2P networks.

BTW - the $3000 settlement idea is most likely the best way for Apple to go. Sure, it puts them in the same boat with the RIAA, but it would be the best middle-ground solution for both sides.

Seriously, what kind of a n00b is this guy? you don't share a prerelease of a OS over the internet. thats just downright blonde if he says "i didn't know it was illegal". Even if it was a beta that is still no excuse. like Billy K said "I think Apple needs to scare the hell out of them, knock them upside the head a little bit with a financial settlement ($5K? $10K) and have them sign a deal not to divulge details of the settlement. Done and over with."

But definitely make the fine within his range.

We're talking about the company that payed several convicted music theives thousands of dollars to star in a pro-iTunes commercial... it seems almost a two-faced...

Regardless, that Woz is a humorous guy. He has my props.

-Paul

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Billy K wrote:

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Guest wrote:


I feel compelled to say you are totally retarded on this issue. I'm hoping your kids are shown more mercy if they ever, god forbid, mess up on something as innane as this.

Click-wrap licenses have dubious moral weight. They are 8 billion pages long and incomprehensible to most lawyers, forget normal people, and further forget students. Don't give me this existentialist bs that you're always responsible. If a boeing 747 crashes into you out of the blue, you're not partly at fault because you chose to go out that day and walk the streets. Lets be honest, this kid did the same thing tons of other kids (and adults, and I dare bet that you Vern and others that visit this site have done), and steve jobs has done. Share some software. Dumb. sure. But the law is WAY out of wack on the punishment that results when david gets plowed by goliath. The only difference is that you guys are such apple lackys that you'll find any justification at all to make it ok for apple to do any damn thing. and spare me your justifications, they sound hollow after your party line comments above.

The reality was that not only was this crap software available for $500 to any dullard that wanted it, but it was ALREADY widely pilfered on p2p networks. This is the same asinine logic that puts Martha Stewart behind bars for $5 worth of insider trading when many Enron boys boosted billions and get off without a slap on the wrist. SOmetimes the laws are just out of wack and that is exactly what is going on here. This punishment does not fit the crime, and anyone that is stretching sharing some software to losing a career in medicine by a young person--anyone stretching an argument justifying such an outcome is a freak'n apple apologist loon, a retarded existentialist, or some other combination of crazy.

Oh, please. You don't have to read any fine print to know not to provide a tracker for copyrighted OS. Especially a pre-release. These are college kids, not 4-year olds. This whole "I didn't know it was illegal" thing is pure BS.

I think Apple needs to scare the hell out of them, knock them upside the head a little bit with a financial settlement ($5K? $10K) and have them sign a deal not to divulge details of the settlement. Done and over with.

But don't make excuses for them...

Of course they knew they were doing something wrong. The question is did they know the gravity of it? Did they think they were swiping a gum ball from the local 7-11 or detonating a nuclear device. Further, my point about signing the agreement was about it's moral righteousness. IT's legal stance is known. Their is little chance of a college kid knowing or understanding the damages and repurcussions of swapping some files based on a multipage legal document. It's reasonable to think in their minds this was "no big deal" and that they thought that the worst consequnces would be no big deal. Barring this kid being a legal specialist, and considering how wide spread and common pilfered OS X betas are, it's relatively clear that these kids didn't think they were doing something with the dire consequences that are being slammed on them. More importantly, they were right to assume that it shouldn't be a life ending event. Something is wrong with the law and the people that enforce an unjust law so viciously when the punishment is simply not at all in line with the crime.

Your tool attitude almost makes me wish you would experience such inequitable consequences for some minor infraction, but I can't muster enough hate.

It's nice you want Apple to have all the abbility to keep their software from being leaked that Microsoft has, but they probably don't agree, which is probably why they're doing this.

Kick them out of ADC
Forbid them to ever join again
Have them pay a "student size" restitution
Have them make public apologies
Have them hold "why this was wrong" seminars at local colleges and high schools

Their lives should not be ruined over this.

Then they will learn about copyrights

Now you are talking crazy. You certainly don't have to read the fine prints to know that it's illegal to disclose beta testing software. Or are you just pretending to be dumb?

There's a thing call right and wrong. You certainly don't have to read the fine prints to know it's illegal to share the beta-testing software with anyone. Did you ever read the fine prints on your tax return to know that you shouldn't lie about your income? I certainly hope you know better than that.

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BeSmart wrote:
There's a thing call right and wrong.

Actually for smart people, those are two things. And as for my taxes, I read the fine print not prints. I lie all the time to people about my income!

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BeSmart wrote:
There's a thing call right and wrong. You certainly don't have to read the fine prints to know it's illegal to share the beta-testing software with anyone. Did you ever read the fine prints on your tax return to know that you shouldn't lie about your income? I certainly hope you know better than that.

You certainly don't need to be a legal scholar to know that sharing a copy of widely pilfered beta software that is easilly accessible for $500 does not demand that someone's life be ruined. You certainly do not have to be a scholar of morality and ethics to know that is a *wrong* and not a right. However, apparently you must not be a cult following apple user to discern wrong from right when it comes to apple's many misdeeds.

LIfe isn't fair and you have to pay for your mistakes. Sometimes the lesson is harder than you expected it to be. And you did expect it, because, really, you knew it was wrong. You just hoped you wouldn't be caught. Or you figured everyone else is doing it, so you can and will get away with it too. Well, guess what? Sometimes out of all the speeders on the highway, you're the one pulled over and you gotta pay the fine.

People are really getting way bent out of shape over this legal action. The first thing done is the legal action is taken. Then the case is presented. Then they'll determine the penalty -- if they even get that far and don't make an agreement before it all goes to court. There have been plenty of cases where in the end they charge the offender one whole dollar, and they generally go away a little wiser (and probably out court and lawyer fees).

There's no grand plan to put the smack down on some light offenders. It's just the way things are done. In the end the court will decide whether it is worth a heavy fine or making an example of or whatever.

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Dean Lewis wrote:
LIfe isn't fair and you have to pay for your mistakes. Sometimes the lesson is harder than you expected it to be. And you did expect it, because, really, you knew it was wrong. You just hoped you wouldn't be caught. Or you figured everyone else is doing it, so you can and will get away with it too. Well, guess what? Sometimes out of all the speeders on the highway, you're the one pulled over and you gotta pay the fine.

People are really getting way bent out of shape over this legal action. The first thing done is the legal action is taken. Then the case is presented. Then they'll determine the penalty -- if they even get that far and don't make an agreement before it all goes to court. There have been plenty of cases where in the end they charge the offender one whole dollar, and they generally go away a little wiser (and probably out court and lawyer fees).

There's no grand plan to put the smack down on some light offenders. It's just the way things are done. In the end the court will decide whether it is worth a heavy fine or making an example of or whatever.

You are a genuine retard. You take your chances speeding, and you get a traffic ticket. Maybe it's $200 when you only expected it to be $100, but that's not the same as getting a speeding ticket and getting put in a mexican prison for 3 years because they didn't like your attitude and the law allows for bully corruption by its officers or major financial (corporate) contributors.

As for the case, you total idiot, by the time it gets through trial, if you do not have a lawyer, there is a great chance he will lose the case by default. The kid is not competent to timely respond to all the motions etc. If he springs for a lawyer, it will bankrupt him. Did you even read the article and the interview? Jesus. If he doesn't get a lawyer, he will lose by default and Apple will get all the trumped up damages it requests. And you can be sure that's more than $1. Furthermore, even if he gets a $1 settlement from apple benevolence (cough cough), there is still the matter of a federal crime on his record. Which has a very real chance of killing his career.

This is an insane setup. These laws were bought by the big corps in the US and the the punishments these evil crap companies paid for to our evil crap politicians to rubber stamp are completely out of line with the crimes.

You guys are just total apple tools. It's pathetic you can just ignore any critical thinking that involves questioning apple propriety in any capacity. It makes sense that this country voted in Bush for a second term. Un-f'n-real. Just total retards.

If you think the system sucks, that's one thing.

I would just like to know what Apple should have done to these three ADC members who were caught distributing the beta. It's easy to stand back and scream that Apple is full of crap and these kids don't deserve to be hung out a window by their ankles by the awful justice system, but what action could Apple have taken to prevent this from happening again?

A.) No action taken - they just order the site to stop it

This wouldn't solve the problem. It would just spring up somewhere else.

B.) Cut off the developers from access to betas unless they've provided a blood sample and first born child

Sure, let's just release an update for the platform with no supporting software using it.

C.) Lie about it - tell everyone that it didn't really happen

uh ... no sarcastic comment needed to follow this one.

D.) .... I really can't think of anything else here.

What were Apple alternatives? They 'had' to press legal charges against these kids. So did the RIAA. So will the MPAA. So will any other company with copyrights to material that sees it being illegally distributed. If they don't, they're sending a message that they have no interest in the money that they are losing.

Microsoft is going to stop providing feature updates to illegal copies of their operating systems. Sure, it won't stop the users from getting them, but I don't think that they're wrong for trying to curb it a little. They're losing money.

Sure, I think a company should care less about the bottom line than the people influenced by their business, but it doesn't mean they can't ever take any action to maintain it. Sorry if you think that's the opinion of an Apple-tool, but I think it applies beyond the scope of my choice in platform and into my belief that businesses need some way to defend themselves against digital theft.