This is not good news for us Apple users. Spotlight should give us the option of what information we want to have attached to our saved and downloaded files.
I know that a lot of people may take the "I've got nothing to hide" attitude, but it still is your personal information that may get misused in the future.

I'm not a great fan of spotlight either. The previous method worked quite well. If I'm stuck having it, I appreciate knowing what it does and how to circumvent it. Knowledge is power.

Thanks!

My wife is a Republican, she downloads disgusting things from these sites daily. What if my computer gets seized and all of this information gets out in the open and I'm accused of being one too? Can they use this data to lock me up as if I had been veiwing porn?

I just checked some files that I downloaded. The location did not show up on:

JPG
GIF

It did on:

DOC
PDF
TXT
DMG
MPEG

I have nothing to add here, but want to extend props to you for bringing this to everyone's attention. Metadata is a serious privacy concern, IMHO, as it is personal in nature. NOBODY should have access to my metadata without me explictly granting them permission to access it. Without this protection, I can no longer have a PERSONAL computer, and will no longer feel the need to purchase computer related products for home use.

Classic : )

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Guest wrote:
My wife is a Republican, she downloads disgusting things from these sites daily. What if my computer gets seized and all of this information gets out in the open and I'm accused of being one too? Can they use this data to lock me up as if I had been veiwing porn?

I had problems with spotlight just not finding things no matter how many times i forced it to reindex. I had to add things using a terminal command. So, I'm left not fully confident in it's ability to find things. It would be nice if you still had the old option of searching.

Other than that, I've got used to the way spotlight does things, can only hope it gets quicker.

Yeah, I agree. It is classic FUD from people who can't spell. It's all the same -- mindless paranoia based on ignorance and insecurity.

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Guest wrote:
My wife is a Republican, she downloads disgusting things from these sites daily. What if my computer gets seized and all of this information gets out in the open and I'm accused of being one too? Can they use this data to lock me up as if I had been veiwing porn?

Hopefully.

Don't worry. Nobody is going to put you in jail for reading, thinking, saying or writing things Republican, no matter how disgusting and offensive it might seem to you. You only have to worry if your wife starts downloading things from sites which attempt to hold the current administration accountable for starting wars under false pretenses, for violating US wiretapping laws solely for the purpose of exercising the "authority of the executive branch." If your computer gets seized then say goodbye to the world of a US citizen and say hello to the limbo of being considered an illegal combatant.

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Guest wrote:
My wife is a Republican, she downloads disgusting things from these sites daily. What if my computer gets seized and all of this information gets out in the open and I'm accused of being one too? Can they use this data to lock me up as if I had been veiwing porn?

If your computer gets seized then say goodbye to the world of a US citizen and say hello to the limbo of being considered an illegal combatant.

So, you found out they finally put a feature back in to Mac OS X that we had in Mac OS 8 and 9 -- namely "Get Info" showing the URL of where a downloaded file came from. Were you griping back in the mid-to-late 90s, too?

While the idea above to allow us to set preferences about what to share is a good one, I personally am glad to get the metadata. I've missed in in OS X for years. It helps me track down where some of the more obscure pieces of junk came from after I've let them build up for months without me having to actually open the file. And, if I see a file from a place I know I never visited, then I can be certain it came from someone else's disk or was put there somehow else and I shouldn't be launching it.

This is something to make good use of -- not to demonize and spread fear about! Marketing companies didn't clamor for this stuff back in the 90s at the height of the Internet bubble; I doubt we'll see them clamoring now. They have other ways to know where we are and what we're doing.

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Dean Lewis wrote:
So, you found out they finally put a feature back in to Mac OS X that we had in Mac OS 8 and 9 -- namely "Get Info" showing the URL of where a downloaded file came from. Were you griping back in the mid-to-late 90s, too?

While the idea above to allow us to set preferences about what to share is a good one, I personally am glad to get the metadata. I've missed in in OS X for years. It helps me track down where some of the more obscure pieces of junk came from after I've let them build up for months without me having to actually open the file. And, if I see a file from a place I know I never visited, then I can be certain it came from someone else's disk or was put there somehow else and I shouldn't be launching it.

This is something to make good use of -- not to demonize and spread fear about! Marketing companies didn't clamor for this stuff back in the 90s at the height of the Internet bubble; I doubt we'll see them clamoring now. They have other ways to know where we are and what we're doing.

The difference is that back in OS 9 it wasn't put in as an xattr. Back then all you had to do was rebuild the desktop to clean that stuff away. Now even when you delete the spotlight index this stuff sticks around. The system didn't put an entire database of metadata on a volume. So now when you give someone a USB drive or some other volume they have all the metadata history for the entire drive.

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Guest wrote:


The difference is that back in OS 9 it wasn't put in as an xattr. Back then all you had to do was rebuild the desktop to clean that stuff away. Now even when you delete the spotlight index this stuff sticks around. The system didn't put an entire database of metadata on a volume. So now when you give someone a USB drive or some other volume they have all the metadata history for the entire drive.

Oh yea, and also, the fact that lots of things sucked in os 9 and went un-fixed didn't make them acceptable. The fact that racism used to go completely unchecked and pops up frequently now doesn't somehow make it ok.

I don't want my computer tracking what I do without my knowing it, and I want to control what information I choose to give to people.

Quicksilver does Spotlight's job better, faster and more efficiently. Loads much faster too. How can I remove Spotlight from my menu bar?

I found out how. Do the following:

http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20050430210248363

And then this:

http://www.tuaw.com/2005/05/13/tiger-tips-hate-spotlight-turn-it-off

No more processor-extensive, annoying Spotlight!

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Dean Lewis wrote:
So, you found out they finally put a feature back in to Mac OS X that we had in Mac OS 8 and 9 -- namely "Get Info" showing the URL of where a downloaded file came from.

That was your browser saving the URI in the “Get Info” text area, not the OS. I think NetScape did this, and iCab still does.

Actually, i like this feature. Too bad it doesn’t work for every file type, though. The problem with the current implementation is that you can’t copy the source to the clipboard from the Finder’s Get Info.

It's because of the current adminstration, and the solders in the field, that you even have the luxury of bitching about them.

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John Kheit wrote:
John Kheit is an attorney. Please don't hold that against him.

’fraid i have to hold it against you; being an attorney is a choice, and you can choose to “go straight.” Get yourself into a 12-step program today! Don’t you realize that attorneys hurt people?

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heifer wrote:
It's because of the current adminstration, and the solders in the field, that you even have the luxury of bitching about them.

Bullshit… this administration has done more to infringe on our freedoms than any other in the history of this nation.

And if think that we’re in Iraq because we’re protecting the American way of life, then you’re delusional. The Iraq war has made us less safe. Bush wanted to go to war with Iraq before he entered office because Saddam tried to kill his dad. Rumsfeld wanted to go because he wanted to flex America’s military might as a foreign policy tool to intimidate other nations, and Cheney wanted to give his good buddies at Halliburton some nice contracts.

Good god, they shopped around an excuse long enough: First it was about 9-11, but they found no ties to 9-11, so it became about weapons of mass destruction, but the inspectors found nothing (because there was nothing to find), so it became about freeing the Iraqi people. Anybody with half a brain could figure out it that they wanted to go to war, but weren’t telling us the real reason.

All the freedom’s we’ve lost during the Shrub, er little Bush, reign of terror in the name of “fighting terrorism” will never be “given back” to the people. They’re gone for good, and so is the American way of life our ancestors enjoyed. All we’re left with is the shadow of what we once had. And it’s only going to get worse.

“Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.” – Benjamin Franklin

Keep the discussion on topic, which means take the political debate to the World News/Politics/Philosophy forum. I'll be happy to split the existing off-topic posts to their own thread...

Bryan - TMO

Thought this might also be of interest to readers:

http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Carbon/Reference/MetadataAttributesRef/Reference/CommonAttrs.html

Apparently, the field tags for DRM and IP protection are also being put in place:

" kMDItemRights
Provides a link to information about rights held on the document. Contains a rights management statement for the document, or reference a service providing such information. Rights information often encompasses Intellectual Property Rights (IPR), copyright, and various property rights. If this attribute is absent, no assumptions can be made about the status of these and other rights with respect to the document."

Before I go on, let me reiterate that I don't necessarily disagree with the idea that metadata needs to be watched for abuse. I don't think we're there yet, much less at the level of Microsoft Word's problem. Word randomly took bits from the drive to fill out Word files with hidden data; these metadata are accessible and not encoded, etc. That's why I think John's being a bit alarmist. (Your opinion may vary of course. )

"The difference is that back in OS 9 it wasn't put in as an xattr. Back then all you had to do was rebuild the desktop to clean that stuff away. Now even when you delete the spotlight index this stuff sticks around."

But I didn't LIKE when they got wiped away. I liked them being there. If I wanted to get rid of them I could, but one simple desktop rebuild and I'd lose valuable info about where something came from. Control is being able to delete them individually, not losing all of them in one fell swoop.

So, we are at a standstill, because I like the information, no matter the form it takes to attach itself to the file, because I find it to be helpful and useful to me. You would rather it not be there because you see some invasion of privacy and are somehow extrapolating out you'll never be able to modify it.

So, what do you do with your photographs? All digital photos have a wealth of EXIM data attached to them now. People could track down exactly what time you were at a particular location through them. Do you wipe out all of that data, too? Probably not, because organizing photos by date is often useful. (Check out Apple's video tours of Aperture to see how much data is kept with a photo; I was astounded.)

There are some real threats to security and privacy, but I don't think this is one of them. Can it be abused? Anything can be abused. But, this is the way things are going, so we're just going to have to deal with it. And this talk as if we'll never be able to edit or handle this data is just melodramatic handwringing as far as I'm concerned. We had tools to fiddle with metadata in OS 9, and we have them now.


"Apparently, the field tags for DRM and IP protection are also being put in place"

Well, if people wouldn't steal things, we wouldn't have to all be treated like children and have this DRM shoved on us. If it impairs my own personal use of what I have legally obtained, then I'll make a ruckus. As it is right now, steps have to be taken to do the best that can be done to ensure developers (and artists etc.) get some little payment they have earned. The idea that if it is on the internet it must be free is too prevalent to NOT do something. (I ran into it again this Christmas setting up a family's computer to handle their kids' new MP3 players. "But this site has all the music I want for free!") All this stuff won't stop the dedicated pirates making real money from fakes, but it keeps the honest folks honest and hopefully keeps the software and music (or whatever the work is) coming.

When I saw the title of the column, I thought I was going be treated to a new installment of John Dvorak's old "The Devil's Advocate" column which appeared on the back page on MacUser for many years. But this is some other guy.

Good topic though. Before I send files to people, I routinely check them for metadata I would rather keep private, and if necessary I strip unwanted metadata in iView Media Pro. Adobe Bridge is also great for seeing file metadata.

Hi John,

I ran across a handful of patent applications from Apple this morning while looking through them, and bookmarked them. While doing some follow up research to see if they might have some significance to anyone, I saw a link to your post here.

I've written about them in a blog post, and thought that you might be interested in seeing them. I don't know if they will add anything to your knowledge of how meta data works with the latest operating system from Apple, but they might. The post is here:

http://www.seobythesea.com/?p=76

Cheers.

Bill Slawski

If I run this command in my Safari download folder:
$ mdls ./* | grep WhereFrom
I get nothing. Latest Safari, latest OSX.

Maybe people should generate their own files and meta data..instead of using content and creativity that originates from other peoples hard work.
I like the comment above about the people that steal being at fault.
I think it's true and therefore I also blame these people for the current risk to our privacy such tracking put's all of us in.
I can't wait for the day when we can seperate the thieves from the artists and copyright owners. I know some consider thievery a form of art and if so maybe then they shouldn't object to data that gives them the credit for being that type of artist.
As for lawyers....they are nice when you need one but seem to be in the way when you don't. Creating ambiguity about where a file originates from is much like a lawyers version of truth. Something they prefer to interpret for us.
Nothing personal!
I find this author very interesting and hope to enjoy his comments on many issues in the future.
Good Luck!
Sincerely,
Gary
PS: The guy with the comments about Iraq and Bush etc. That post has the emotions of fresh conviction. Hopefully he/we can all try to get ahead of the curve and start talking about $#!% that is about to happen rather than $#!% that happened right in front of everybody. That's where I could really get behind a guy with balls and anger. Maybe it's time we all and I mean all took some blame for buying a bunch of bullshit or if not buying then not objecting loud enough at the time. Time to get back to truth is fact and bullshit is manipulation.

I'll hide this rumor about some upcoming OS X features here for the very dedicated. A little birdy told me that as of right now, spotlight is not using xattr for storing metadata. The hooks are in there, and some people are making use of them as was cited in the article. SpotMeta and the Ars articles show this.

There is an apple tech note that discusses privacy issues found here:
http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Carbon/Conceptual/MetadataIntro/index.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40001268

Actually, it barely touches on privacy issues and basically drops the ball on to the developers:
"Developers should provide users with information about which data is indexed by their Spotlight importers. Developers should also consider providing preferences that allow users control over what data is extracted as metadata."

It doesn't seem likely that all developers will strive to keep this information safe and secure.

What this makes relatively clear, however, is that an upcoming version of OS X will have xattr implemented to store metadata. This may well come in the form as some revamped HFSX version of the filesystem integrating more tightly with spotlight and the finder.

Happy New Year everyone.

. . . a need for a user level 'Metadata' setting in the System Preferences - ideally it would work in a way that applications can register what metadata they record - and then you could have something simple in the user setup, that would allow the user to choose their own balance between privacy and functionality.
(A good compromise would presumably be metadata that is only readable / modifiable by the user. I presume that keeping it in a database rather than in the file also makes sending the file onwards safer).

Okay, so this current use of metadata may not be Big Brother yet, & I'de like to see more use of metadata for my benefit on my computer, but I want to make sure that it stays personal.

I used to hope that Apple would go against the tide when it came to restrictions & intrusions against it's users, but with the coming security on silicon & ties to the entertainment monster...

I'm thinking Apple has less concern for the user's needs.

I hope Im wrong, but if not, after more than twenty years on a Mac, I'll switch to some open source OS that doesn't track my usage & look for ways to consume media that doesn't force me into a EULA that strips me of my rights.

Even then I think it may be a losing struggle.